Legal dogs, please explain how this is murder .......

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I cannot see how this is premeditated murder, nor can I see how the surviving criminal can be found guilty of said murder.

The judge is stretching a bit here ..... in fact, he's stretching a lot.

You could say that if it was premeditated then the dead bloke committed suicide and if suicide, his mate plus the cops plus the driver plus anyone who offended him are all complicit.

I'll be shocked if the crim loses on appeal.

Actually, I won't be shocked, it's just another way to bleed the system.
 

Etienne1290

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not a legal eagle, but "both the deceased and Mr Ratau [had] subjectively foreseen that their attempt to rob the firearms may lead to one or both of the firearms discharging, leading to one or more of the occupants of the minibus (or even an innocent bystander's) injury or death"
 
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Your decisions and actions have consequences. If you can/should reasonably foresee those consequences, you are responsible for them.
Is dit nie 'n tipe "Dolus Eventualis" nie G?? Nie "Directus"nie?
Vra net
Daai goete 35 jaar terug geleer en verstaan nog steeds nie als nie
 

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Your decisions and actions have consequences. If you can/should reasonably foresee those consequences, you are responsible for them.
Ja, I get that. But if I'm dicing on a bike and my fellow racer dies and I don't, I don't see how I can be charged with murder.

If we rob a bank and security man shoots you, why should I be done for murder?

Not in any of the 3 cases was anyone murdered. Nor can it be premeditated.

We'll be locking up politicians for sending soldiers to war next. Not a bad thing, mind you, but not really sensible.

Death by misadventure?
 

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Or, if the guy survived? Would his mate be charged with attempted murder?

And the survivor charged with nothing?
 

2StrokeDan

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This will not stand on appeal, although I agree with the judge's opinion.

It is overdue for criminals to understand that their planned criminality WILL carry consequences.
 

Gerard

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Ja nee. It is what it is. If your unlawful action causes the death of another you are responsible for it.

Bike race. Voluntary assumption of risk. Not unlawful.

Bank robbery. You should expect to be shot at. If your buddy gets killed you committed murder. Your unlawful act set the consequence in motion.
 

Bill the Bong

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I’ll just tune the judge I don’t know the other robber. We just happened to rob the same place at the same time.
I’m just an ordinary decent criminal
 

Gerard

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I’ll just tune the judge I don’t know the other robber. We just happened to rob the same place at the same time.
I’m just an ordinary decent criminal

Now that excuse is not a joke. Usually on his way to Kentucky or Woolies. Strue.
 

Grunder

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Your decisions and actions have consequences. If you can/should reasonably foresee those consequences, you are responsible for them.
I understand this.

Can I tweak the question of a current case I know.

3 Guys rob a store. Owner of the store kills one guy. His co-accused gets sentenced for Life for his death.

Like I said, I understand the death of their accomplice gets pinned on them, but why Life? The accomplice also knew what he got himself into! That is a bit heavy for me. If the owner was killed yes, but accomplice?? :unsure:
 

Gerard

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I understand this.

Can I tweak the question of a current case I know.

3 Guys rob a store. Owner of the store kills one guy. His co-accused gets sentenced for Life for his death.

Like I said, I understand the death of their accomplice gets pinned on them, but why Life? The accomplice also knew what he got himself into! That is a bit heavy for me. If the owner was killed yes, but accomplice?? :unsure:

My criminal law is bit rusty. But death resulting from armed robbery carries minimum life sentence. I think.
 

Grunder

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My criminal law is bit rusty. But death resulting from armed robbery carries minimum life sentence. I think.
Most guys here did not get life. But I think the guy is hiding something from me.
 

RobC

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I understand this.

Can I tweak the question of a current case I know.

3 Guys rob a store. Owner of the store kills one guy. His co-accused gets sentenced for Life for his death.

Like I said, I understand the death of their accomplice gets pinned on them, but why Life? The accomplice also knew what he got himself into! That is a bit heavy for me. If the owner was killed yes, but accomplice?? :unsure:
Heavy my ass, criminals need to know actions have life long results.
 

Grunder

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Heavy my ass, criminals need to know actions have life long results.
Hehe your answer is emotionally loaded. Hence me aiming the question at @Gerard

But I understand where you are coming from. Unofficially I feel the same way ;)
 

2StrokeDan

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Armed robbery is viewed as a very serious crime all over the world.

I am ot 100% sure, but it could have been a capitol punishment crime in the old SA.
 

IceCreamMan

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Think the definition of reasonable man needs to be modified in za. If not the definition the understanding thereof.

It’s colonial concept for colonials.
 

Slainte Mhaith

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Ja, I get that. But if I'm dicing on a bike and my fellow racer dies and I don't, I don't see how I can be charged with murder.

If we rob a bank and security man shoots you, why should I be done for murder?

Not in any of the 3 cases was anyone murdered. Nor can it be premeditated.

We'll be locking up politicians for sending soldiers to war next. Not a bad thing, mind you, but not really sensible.

Death by misadventure?

If you are gonna try to take the gun from someone I think the reasonable deduction would be that it might go off and you might injure someone.
Don't know the details of the case but it sounds like the thief tried to overpower the police and take their weapon.

Don't know how the premeditated attack with a negligent or unfortunate murder gets shortened to premeditated murder though.

I am no legal expert.
 

Avontier

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The judgment is not as far-fetched as you might think. Scanning the report you'll see that they were cuffed together and acted together. Grabbing an officer's gun, you should expect shots to be fired and people to be killed, although the one getting killed might you, your accomplice, an officer, or an innocent unintended bystander. This doesn't absolve you from murder just because he's your buddy. Premeditation also needn't be a long meticulous plan. Read up on the the doctrine of common purpose, although the judge didn't even have to go that far. Would still have made him guilty of murder.
 
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