K
Kev
Guest
Welsh said:
+1. On the 1150ADV at least. 8)
Cape Town to Brandvlei and back - solo, DIY
- Thread starter Jacko
- Start date
+1. On the 1150ADV at least. 8)
Obi -Wan
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Jacko
Whilst I appreciate your writing style you do come across as being fairly dogmatic about certain issues, which is of course your right.
My wife and I both ride with Rally Pro 2 jackets and the BMW City Pants,. Having ridden motorcycles for some 30 years we both feel that this is a combination that works for us. Having just returned from the BMW annual gathering and riding through some horrendous conditions including a very strong wind, heavy rain and extreme cold, I challenge you to find a better jacket in the local market. This is not a lifestyle decision - it is about staying warm and dry in extreme conditions and about confidence in the armour should something bad happen. Granted, there were no doubt many would be posers in Victoria West this past week-end, but in the main, they all rode their bikes there and back and many will ( hopefully )have discovered that a good jacket / Kit is more than just a lifestyle statement.
As to the standing thing. I typically do not ride my GS at warp velocity on dirt so I feel comfortable standing and more secure. I think this is a very personal riding style issue and if you are more comfortable sitting , cool.
Having read ( and enjoyed ) some of your contributions in the printed media I would appreciate your honest feedback by way of comparison
between the 1150 GS and the 1200 GS , based on your experience as an owner, not as a paid lackey of BMW.
Whilst I appreciate your writing style you do come across as being fairly dogmatic about certain issues, which is of course your right.
My wife and I both ride with Rally Pro 2 jackets and the BMW City Pants,. Having ridden motorcycles for some 30 years we both feel that this is a combination that works for us. Having just returned from the BMW annual gathering and riding through some horrendous conditions including a very strong wind, heavy rain and extreme cold, I challenge you to find a better jacket in the local market. This is not a lifestyle decision - it is about staying warm and dry in extreme conditions and about confidence in the armour should something bad happen. Granted, there were no doubt many would be posers in Victoria West this past week-end, but in the main, they all rode their bikes there and back and many will ( hopefully )have discovered that a good jacket / Kit is more than just a lifestyle statement.
As to the standing thing. I typically do not ride my GS at warp velocity on dirt so I feel comfortable standing and more secure. I think this is a very personal riding style issue and if you are more comfortable sitting , cool.
Having read ( and enjoyed ) some of your contributions in the printed media I would appreciate your honest feedback by way of comparison
between the 1150 GS and the 1200 GS , based on your experience as an owner, not as a paid lackey of BMW.
Jacko
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Obi-wan
Hopefully your last sentence came through slightly un-nuanced. Or maybe I'm oversensitive. But I take my professional integrity VERY seriously. Feel free to peruse anything I have ever written in a professional capacity and prove the contrary.
That aside, I will summarise it briefly:
1. The 1150 GS is slower, heavier and those things. For me as a kortgat that makes a big difference in the dirt. It may not apply to others.
2. The 1200GS is one nice boney for steeking. I like the light weight off-road. Which does make it better in technical off-roading than even the 1200Adv (I can only hear the protests from 1200Adv owners...)
3. The 1150 GS is tougher. If you look at the manufacturing processes used in building the two different generations of bikes it clearly mirrors advances in automotive manufacturing technology and techniques. This obviously (like in cages) allowed for a lighter bike, but also a less tough bike (like modern cars that absorb impact, rather than withstand it).
4. The 1200GS has a lot of superficial plastic panels which look the bomb, but will damage very easily during a fall.
5. Look at the front telelever arm on the 1200 and compare it to the much beafier one on the 1150. Every gramme obviously counted. Go figure. Almost every 1200 that I've seen crash or that's had an off, had seriously bent/misaligned front fork sliders/bent Telelever arm. Why? Go figure.
6. Having said that, it is very similar to the old Hilux/new Hilux debate. The later is better in many regards, but also weaker in others. Suppose that's what they call progress.
What I DO like about Toyota is that they still make the 70 Series bakkie/station wagon and the 100GX.
The BMW GS'es have probably mutated from a tough Land Cruiser like thing to a Prado in current guise. The HP2 can then be likened to a short wheelbase Series 70 off-roader.
Like someone in Namibia told me recently, refering to the new Hilux: "Hy lyk of hy al klaar gerol het..."
Hope I make sense. Feel free to ask some more questions.
LuckyStriker
Bachelor Dog
Jacko, your journalistic penchant for sensationalism has never intruded on you sense of integrity, I'm sure we will all agree.
Though I'm sure that a certain amount of fiction does make the story more interesting...and if not fiction, then at least a small measure of spin.
Seeing that you are participating and even encouraging this line of conversation, it cannot be considered hijacking, mmm? :wink:
Is the 1150GS tougher? Perhaps. I agree that progress really means less materials, less effort, quicker construction, same result for the same money.
Unfortunately new products are almost always less durable than the stuff our grandparents used.
Though strangely enough, most honest and sensible grandparents prefer modern kitchen appliances to the stuff they used way back when. But I digress...
The rear subrame is improved on the 1200GS - they used to break on the 1150 when you overloaded the bike. It no longer happens.
The canbus system is an improvement in general. It is more reliable than the individual fused wire loom system, however it is nearly impossible to repair unless you have superior electrical skills. This may be a good ting because the average human can't distinguish between live and neutral wires anyway.
I don't know anything about the 1200GS telelever being weaker. (I had to say that so that you won't think I'm suspiciously quiet
)
I suspect many of us are so unconciosly resistant to change that we will often focus on what is wrong with progress rather than what counts as improvement.
Sorry, this post is turning into my own private melodrama
I conclude by saying that I agree that the 1200GS is better on technical sections than the GSA...but only marginally and barely noticable in the hands of a professional such as the god-like Jan Staal du Toit, whom we should all worship and adore
(okay, that last bit was too much...)
Ride, Vaquero!
Though I'm sure that a certain amount of fiction does make the story more interesting...and if not fiction, then at least a small measure of spin.
Seeing that you are participating and even encouraging this line of conversation, it cannot be considered hijacking, mmm? :wink:
Is the 1150GS tougher? Perhaps. I agree that progress really means less materials, less effort, quicker construction, same result for the same money.
Unfortunately new products are almost always less durable than the stuff our grandparents used.
Though strangely enough, most honest and sensible grandparents prefer modern kitchen appliances to the stuff they used way back when. But I digress...
The rear subrame is improved on the 1200GS - they used to break on the 1150 when you overloaded the bike. It no longer happens.
The canbus system is an improvement in general. It is more reliable than the individual fused wire loom system, however it is nearly impossible to repair unless you have superior electrical skills. This may be a good ting because the average human can't distinguish between live and neutral wires anyway.
I don't know anything about the 1200GS telelever being weaker. (I had to say that so that you won't think I'm suspiciously quiet
)I suspect many of us are so unconciosly resistant to change that we will often focus on what is wrong with progress rather than what counts as improvement.
Sorry, this post is turning into my own private melodrama
I conclude by saying that I agree that the 1200GS is better on technical sections than the GSA...but only marginally and barely noticable in the hands of a professional such as the god-like Jan Staal du Toit, whom we should all worship and adore
(okay, that last bit was too much...)
Ride, Vaquero!
I can only add 2 points: (plse read in jest)
1. Its unfair to use Toyota as an analogy when talking about BMs - rather use Land Rovers for their owners are as much unashamedly brand conscious about a heavily overpriced, average product with a proud history and tough appeal coupled to a marketable lifestyle (with sponsorships for prominent celebrities like Holgate and Obi-One). I guess in that sense KTM can be compared with Pajero's - racing and performance oriented, but needing constant attention.
2. Much like Land Rover, some BM owners also have sub-genres where they are so brand loyal that they are not only trying to convince all opposition brands that they own the best bike, but also try and persuade their fellow BM riders that they own the best model within the best brand.
Now i'll retire to my bunker
H
1. Its unfair to use Toyota as an analogy when talking about BMs - rather use Land Rovers for their owners are as much unashamedly brand conscious about a heavily overpriced, average product with a proud history and tough appeal coupled to a marketable lifestyle (with sponsorships for prominent celebrities like Holgate and Obi-One). I guess in that sense KTM can be compared with Pajero's - racing and performance oriented, but needing constant attention.
2. Much like Land Rover, some BM owners also have sub-genres where they are so brand loyal that they are not only trying to convince all opposition brands that they own the best bike, but also try and persuade their fellow BM riders that they own the best model within the best brand.
Now i'll retire to my bunker
H
MrBig
Grey Hound
:lol:
A friend of mine said not too long ago:
"Die Landy is nog steeds vir my magic, maar ek is moeg om in die veld te ry met 'n konstante vuil vermoede dat iets gaan breek, 'n mens noem dit blykbaar 'chronic Land Rover induced mechanical breakdown paranoia"
(his exact words I kid you not)
A friend of mine said not too long ago:
"Die Landy is nog steeds vir my magic, maar ek is moeg om in die veld te ry met 'n konstante vuil vermoede dat iets gaan breek, 'n mens noem dit blykbaar 'chronic Land Rover induced mechanical breakdown paranoia"
(his exact words I kid you not)
Jacko
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LS, jy's 'n genie :lol:
Waar punte, maar afgesien van oorlaai, en die 1150 se swakker rear subframe, is hy eenvoudiger en tawwer (veral, en spesifiek, as jy neermoer).
Sal ek teruggaan na my 1150? Nooit!
The point I'm making is that, yes, the 1200 is "better", but it also has it's drawbacks. But for me as a kortgat, the benefits outweigh the drawbacks.
I'm also, rather cunningly, making owners of 1200Adv's starting to doubt themselves. After doubt sets in... I pounce with a cash offer... B :twisted: whuhahahahahah! Bwhuuuuhhahahhaaah!
Waar punte, maar afgesien van oorlaai, en die 1150 se swakker rear subframe, is hy eenvoudiger en tawwer (veral, en spesifiek, as jy neermoer).
Sal ek teruggaan na my 1150? Nooit!
The point I'm making is that, yes, the 1200 is "better", but it also has it's drawbacks. But for me as a kortgat, the benefits outweigh the drawbacks.
I'm also, rather cunningly, making owners of 1200Adv's starting to doubt themselves. After doubt sets in... I pounce with a cash offer... B :twisted: whuhahahahahah! Bwhuuuuhhahahhaaah!
Grootseun
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Quality is a perception, mainly held by the customer
One mans superior quality is anothers modern-age junk..
One mans superior quality is anothers modern-age junk..
Ama ride ride
Grey Hound
I understand Jacko's comments on lifestyle etc clearly. And many of us old school bikers feel the same. I think.
Let me give you an example.
When I started rock climbing (12 years old) we used nuts, loops, swings etc. We did not have fancy tools like friends, friction stops, jammars, dandy booties etc. So we had to work harder, took more risks, took longer to complete a difficult route.
Then the new kid on the block with the rich papa arrived and he could buy all the best imported gear and suddenly he was the one to watch. He looked kinda sexy with all the dandy bling hanging from his waist. He had never climbed some of the capes difficult routes, like Freddy F, Orange, Touch and Go, Crux but everybody ooh and aah when he unpacked his gear as he looked all business. He never climbed with the real good guys and only climbed when the weather was perfect. So he looked the part but sucked.
On the one side I was a bit jealous of his shinny gear and "reputation" but on the other side I felt its unfair that he had a very easy trip to the top cos he did not "earned" his wings. He bought them.
Go and talk to any of the real old hard bikers. The guys who had seen the dark side of biking (not the kTM side :roll: ) and lived. Ask them what they think of todays bikers. And you will understand in a way what Jacko mean.
Lifestyle buyers, buys a lifestyle where others earn and build up a lifestyle.
Jezt me speaking
Let me give you an example.
When I started rock climbing (12 years old) we used nuts, loops, swings etc. We did not have fancy tools like friends, friction stops, jammars, dandy booties etc. So we had to work harder, took more risks, took longer to complete a difficult route.
Then the new kid on the block with the rich papa arrived and he could buy all the best imported gear and suddenly he was the one to watch. He looked kinda sexy with all the dandy bling hanging from his waist. He had never climbed some of the capes difficult routes, like Freddy F, Orange, Touch and Go, Crux but everybody ooh and aah when he unpacked his gear as he looked all business. He never climbed with the real good guys and only climbed when the weather was perfect. So he looked the part but sucked.
On the one side I was a bit jealous of his shinny gear and "reputation" but on the other side I felt its unfair that he had a very easy trip to the top cos he did not "earned" his wings. He bought them.
Go and talk to any of the real old hard bikers. The guys who had seen the dark side of biking (not the kTM side :roll: ) and lived. Ask them what they think of todays bikers. And you will understand in a way what Jacko mean.
Lifestyle buyers, buys a lifestyle where others earn and build up a lifestyle.
Jezt me speaking
michnus
Bachelor Dog
This argument is getting stupid now.
The 1200 is an improvement on the 1150 in every way, yes there's plastics but its better than a dented steel pertol tank, I have drop my 1200 many times, Metaljockey has dropped his even way more than mine in proper off road places and had it on a boat and nothing got broken. i have never heard of a telelever that broke, and yet TT sells a gadget for that too. :wink:
What compare bikes to 4x4? So whats the KLR then a TATA? Don't stereotype people, this is exactly my gripe stop assuming everybody is the same, and make people up in packets because of what they own.
More people ride bikes today, whether they park a 950SE in their lounge as a ornament or only ride it in their garden on Sundays, it's theirs so leave them alone.
Worry about your own, stop looking at others and what they do. Hierdie debat is nou hol rug gerry :roll:
Just for the heck of it get the ride reports out where bikes were really used for what they were meant for, touring, off road and exploring with your bike as only back up?
Not many ne?
The 1200 is an improvement on the 1150 in every way, yes there's plastics but its better than a dented steel pertol tank, I have drop my 1200 many times, Metaljockey has dropped his even way more than mine in proper off road places and had it on a boat and nothing got broken. i have never heard of a telelever that broke, and yet TT sells a gadget for that too. :wink:
What compare bikes to 4x4? So whats the KLR then a TATA? Don't stereotype people, this is exactly my gripe stop assuming everybody is the same, and make people up in packets because of what they own.
More people ride bikes today, whether they park a 950SE in their lounge as a ornament or only ride it in their garden on Sundays, it's theirs so leave them alone.
Worry about your own, stop looking at others and what they do. Hierdie debat is nou hol rug gerry :roll:
Just for the heck of it get the ride reports out where bikes were really used for what they were meant for, touring, off road and exploring with your bike as only back up?
Not many ne?
Zonkelnut
Race Dog
Jacko Jacko Jacko? Harsh words bud!
I can not add much to this thread besides that it is nice photos and I would also like to ride the 252km dirt road. If I just had a good adventure bike I might, but the TA is a sissy bike :wink: .
Point to make is that the BMW jacket is absolutely amazing. Popi had a brand new one and after the Lesotho trip, not a single bit of dust on the jacket. Very impressive. No, I am just joking Popi :lol: (We did give him a lot of flack (spelling)).
MetalJ is right. If it suits you then it is what you buy. I would say the vast majority BM owners on this forum use the GS for what it is made. Have not met one that bought it for lifestyle. But I have such huge respect for my fellow BW wilddogs, that when I pass a GS oak on his bike and they do not even look into my direction, what to say about waving back, it hurts me and I would like to stop the poor sod and give him a wakeup. They are missing a huge part of what Adventure is all about.
Just yesterday a friend gave me an article about people is starting to ?pay to do things, not have things?. They call it the ?experience economy? (just Google the words, there are plenty of info). Thus you can say that non adventure people buy the ?adventure lifestyle bikes?, thinking they buy the experience as well, and that is all they are concerned about.
I don?t think BM gives a damn who buys their bikes. It is about the bottom line to them. And that makes them a good company that will always have money for development and have money for good after sales service, etc.
For myself, I will not buy a BM, not because it is a bad bike or something, but just because I trust my life with Honda. Especially into the places I go. The BM will also make it, but personally I trust the TA more.
Regarding the GPS topic. The GPS takes according to me the top spot for inventions. It blows my mind just to think a small thing like that can replace a woman (sorry, I had to say it). My GPS is old (Garmin V), but saved my life many times. In ZA I will ride without it, and do lots of times. It is amazing the new places you find when you get lost. I found the most beautiful places and people by getting lost. And everybody is always ready to assist and give directions. But as soon as you go into the bush, I can not imagine being without a GPS.
Ama is right, when on a dirt road with a GPS, you can see the corners before you get to them and ride accordingly. I also wondered if Leo was doing the same thing.
I can not add much to this thread besides that it is nice photos and I would also like to ride the 252km dirt road. If I just had a good adventure bike I might, but the TA is a sissy bike :wink: .
Point to make is that the BMW jacket is absolutely amazing. Popi had a brand new one and after the Lesotho trip, not a single bit of dust on the jacket. Very impressive. No, I am just joking Popi :lol: (We did give him a lot of flack (spelling)).
MetalJ is right. If it suits you then it is what you buy. I would say the vast majority BM owners on this forum use the GS for what it is made. Have not met one that bought it for lifestyle. But I have such huge respect for my fellow BW wilddogs, that when I pass a GS oak on his bike and they do not even look into my direction, what to say about waving back, it hurts me and I would like to stop the poor sod and give him a wakeup. They are missing a huge part of what Adventure is all about.
Just yesterday a friend gave me an article about people is starting to ?pay to do things, not have things?. They call it the ?experience economy? (just Google the words, there are plenty of info). Thus you can say that non adventure people buy the ?adventure lifestyle bikes?, thinking they buy the experience as well, and that is all they are concerned about.
I don?t think BM gives a damn who buys their bikes. It is about the bottom line to them. And that makes them a good company that will always have money for development and have money for good after sales service, etc.
For myself, I will not buy a BM, not because it is a bad bike or something, but just because I trust my life with Honda. Especially into the places I go. The BM will also make it, but personally I trust the TA more.
Regarding the GPS topic. The GPS takes according to me the top spot for inventions. It blows my mind just to think a small thing like that can replace a woman (sorry, I had to say it). My GPS is old (Garmin V), but saved my life many times. In ZA I will ride without it, and do lots of times. It is amazing the new places you find when you get lost. I found the most beautiful places and people by getting lost. And everybody is always ready to assist and give directions. But as soon as you go into the bush, I can not imagine being without a GPS.
Ama is right, when on a dirt road with a GPS, you can see the corners before you get to them and ride accordingly. I also wondered if Leo was doing the same thing.
JourneyMan
Bachelor Dog
Zonkelnut said:michnus said:
Michnus for president!!!
He's too honest. Won't make it.
briv
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Lekker Jacko, het die pics en skrywe geniet, dit het my skoon weg gevoer
OK so what happens( besides posing), to the BM seat if you stand on the pegs and do not sit on it? (sorry to bring you back to the standing thing) :shock: ( hi-jack)
See the leading edges, hul skuur stukkend van die geknyp van die kniee en die lekker......amper sing ek :shock: :roll: :wink: .
OK so what happens( besides posing), to the BM seat if you stand on the pegs and do not sit on it? (
sorry to bring you back to the standing thing) :shock: ( hi-jack)
See the leading edges, hul skuur stukkend van die geknyp van die kniee en die lekker......amper sing ek
:shock: :roll: :wink: .Similar threads
